Sam Ovens: Hey, everyone. It's Sam Ovens here and today, I have Frank Keeney on with us. Frank Keeney is a customer of mine since about 2016 and when he joined back then, he was getting about two clients per month. He's making about $20,000 per month with his coaching business. What Frank does is he helps eCommerce businesses with their online advertising. He helps them scale. He helps them get more customers at a better price and make things more predictable and profitable. Since working with me back in 2016, Frank's been able to grow his business to the point now where it's making around $80,000 per month. So, in this interview, we're going to dig in to exactly what it is that Frank does, how he helps his clients, and how he gets clients for himself, and how he's been able to scale from 20K to 80K. So, how is it going, Frank?
Frank Keeney: It's going great. How are things going for you?
Sam Ovens: Good, thanks.
Frank Keeney: Good.
Sam Ovens: You're in California, right?
Frank Keeney: I'm in California, yeah.
Sam Ovens: So, it's 6 am there.
Frank Keeney: It's 6 am and I am actually at my cabin to day and you could see at the back of the window, that's my forest.
Sam Ovens: Looks good. So, let's talk about where you were at back before you started working with me. What was going on with your business and everything? Describe that picture.
Frank Keeney: Well, personally, I've been doing eCommerce for quite a long, but moving over from actually selling physical products to do more or training other people and helping other in their businesses. I mean, I knew I had the skills to help others, but the whole process of bringing on high-ticket coaching students, that was completely, completely new to me and I had struggled with attempting it quite a few times. I didn't have consistent sales of getting coaching clients until I was in your training.
Sam Ovens: A lot of people wonder this. If you got a successful eCommerce business, why bother teaching others how to do it?
Frank Keeney: Well, there's a couple of reasons for that. First, an eCommerce business, it's very capital attentive and that doing coaching is a very lucrative thing to do. But also, what I find is when I started working with other people, it actually improved my own business as well. At the same time, while I was helping other people, running my own business, I can only get so far. But when I start to work with others, then I get exposed to other people's businesses and then as I am going through the process of working with them, it actually improves my skills as well, so it made my business even more successful.
Sam Ovens: Got it. So, you had your own eCommerce business. You decided to start doing some coaching as well and you're able to get one or two clients a month, making 20 grand a month. Why was that a problem? Why were you not just satisfied with that?
Frank Keeney: Well, like anything I do, I want to be as successful as possible. Also, there's a great satisfaction in seeing other people and helping others to grow their business particularly ... I could go over and over, different people that I've worked with that have gone where I've been able to help improve their lives, and employ more people, and completely change their family situation. It's extremely gratifying to see the transformation in other people.
Sam Ovens: Got it. So, what problems were you experiencing? You wanted to grow because you wanted to be as successful as possible. You wanted to help more people. How were you not able to do that?
Frank Keeney: I understood how to sell my own products but going from selling a physical product and a selling a coaching for other people, it's a different type of sell. So the whole philosophy behind that, how to get those clients, you get the leads, put them through some sort of a webinar, and then a strategy session, and then closing of sales, all those concepts were completely foreign to me before I got started. When I was only getting a couple a month, it was a real struggle just to get those. But my background is from selling physical products and selling a coaching program or consulting is, in my experience, completely different from selling physical products. I needed the information to get from where I didn't understand why this wasn't just happening and then putting together that actually converted into coaching clients.
Sam Ovens: So, how were you getting clients back then?
Frank Keeney: Well, I had a webinar. It was a webinar but it was just not in a place where it should have been and I wasn't saying the right things. I didn't understand the kinds of things that I needed to say and talk about, the stories that I needed to tell. I honestly just didn't know exactly how to do that.
Sam Ovens: So, you were running ads like Facebook ads to a webinar to strategy session then doing a strategy session and selling them in?
Frank Keeney: Exactly?
Sam Ovens: Where was the bottleneck in that system?
Frank Keeney: It was the webinar and actually closing them on a strategy session. That was my two weakest process of the whole process.
Sam Ovens: So, you could get the ads to work, you could get attention, you could get clicks at a decent price. You could get people to register for the webinar at a decent conversion and a decent price. Probably attendance is good too, but conversions of attendees, so scheduled strategy sessions, and conversions from actual calls to customers, those were the bottlenecks.
Frank Keeney: Exactly, and your sales script was huge. Something that really made a huge difference almost immediately.
Sam Ovens: First of all, for people listening, they might want to know how we even identify a bottleneck. How do you know it's just not normal? How do you know the results you were getting weren't normal? How did you know they could be better? What were the numbers? Do you remember your webinar to strategy session conversion rate?
Frank Keeney: No, I don't.
Sam Ovens: How do you know that it was not that good?
Frank Keeney: Well, because I was spending lots of money and spending more money than I was making in some cases, so that's how it's a good indicator.
Sam Ovens: Okay, so that's always a good indicator, you're losing money.
Frank Keeney: Yeah. Also, the amount of time that I was putting into it, I knew that I needed to convert better than what I was actually making.
Sam Ovens: Got it. Do you remember roughly how much it costs you per call back then?
Frank Keeney: I don't remember that number back then, no.
Sam Ovens: Got it. But you know that you were losing money. Do you know remember what your strategy session conversion rate was?
Frank Keeney: Oh, I was probably getting 1 out of 15 or so.
Sam Ovens: Got it. Like 7%, something like that.
Frank Keeney: Yeah.
Sam Ovens: That's pretty low, but it's not that bad. I mean, you didn't even get zero. But when you're paying for the leads, yeah, then that's when the issue can occur.
Frank Keeney: Yeah. Spending money and just not seeing something come in.
Sam Ovens: What were people telling you on the calls? Why weren't the calls converting? What was the prospect's reason for not buying?
Frank Keeney: I think most of it was that I was not doing and saying the right things on the calls.
Sam Ovens: I get that, but how is it showing up? Just to help people identify the sort of things that might occur on a call like for you to know you weren't saying the right things. What were they saying to end the call? Because you're doing all of these calls, most of them aren't buying. What are they saying?
Frank Keeney: Well, now, at this point, I have a sales person that takes care of my calls and it's actually been that way for more than a year and a half. So, I've tried to very quickly move on to having someone else do that because clearly, it was not something I enjoy doing and I got a little bit better with it but exactly all the things that they said that wouldn't convert, most of them it was they didn't want to spend the money or they didn't believe it would happen. So, with many things, when I feel like this is one of these parts of my business that I don't want to do or it would be better served for someone else to do that, then I got someone else to do that.
Sam Ovens: Got it. But you were still able to fix the issue yourself first before you brought in a rep, right?
Frank Keeney: To a certain extent, but a rep certainly does quite a lot better.
Sam Ovens: Got it. Because this is a problem that I see a lot of people incur. It's like they're not converting the strategy sessions themselves and so they might try and put a band-aid on it by hiring a rep and getting them to do it, but really there's something fundamentally wrong there. You know what I mean?
Frank Keeney: Right.
Sam Ovens: Like there needs to be a better script or the offer is off or the type of strategy sessions you were getting, the type of person you're getting on the call isn't right. That's why I always recommend first and foremost they get it right themselves even if it's just for a little bit because at least then when you bring a rep on you know that they've got the right setup and now, they can just practice, practice, practice and get perfect, you know?
Frank Keeney: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Ovens: I would assume maybe you did that first yourself like you got my script and you started doing better on the calls and you got ...
Frank Keeney: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I certainly did, but ...
Sam Ovens: What were the key shifts that happened with you to make you better than what you used to be?
Frank Keeney: It was following your script exactly as what ...
Sam Ovens: What was the difference between my script and what you used to do?
Frank Keeney: I talk too much when I was on the call. I would jump in. When it was time for me to just keep my mouth shut, I would talk. I would try to explain things instead of following exactly what works. Whenever I would deviate, I would think, "Oh, I'm just going to wing it," or something like that and I would go off-script. It just wouldn't work.
Sam Ovens: Like if you ask a question, you wouldn't just leave it quiet and wait for them to reply and then when they finish their sentence, you wouldn't just leave it quiet to make sure they didn't attack more on the end. You were just jumping over. As soon as there was a little batch of silence, you just jump in, fill it up.
Frank Keeney: Exactly. Exactly.
Sam Ovens: That's so common.
Frank Keeney: Yes. There was a period of time where I was doing that and it did work. When I stayed on the script, it worked.
Sam Ovens: Cool.
Frank Keeney: But as soon as I deviated from it, it just didn't work.
Sam Ovens: That's a good advice for other people, you know. If you're doing calls yourself, I call it like biting your tongue. Don't put your two cents in. Like if someone tells you something, you don't just jump back in and put your two cents and like, "Oh, yeah. I used to do that last year. I know how you feel." You're not there to sympathize with them and build a friendship. You're there to diagnose and be [inaudible 00:13:44] because you're trying to solve their problem and so you've got to ask a question, listen, then ask another question and listen and not jump in and start taking the conversation off into different tangents. You know what I mean?
Frank Keeney: Yeah. Well, I see it now doing the coaching is that now, I'm working with people and how [inaudible 00:14:13] that works if they apply what I show them that it will work and those that follow what I train, they see great results and those that don't, they don't. I think that's where the most difficult, I think it's just a human thing, is that you always think that what you know or it feels comfortable to do what you know you've always been doing and the difficult part is it's actually ... Someone spends quite a bit of money for my coaching and then they still have this difficulty of actually following instructions, but those that ... I'm not sure how to even articulate this, but when you join something and you put your money into doing something, it's critical to follow what you're being taught.
Frank Keeney: It's like your script. It's like when I train people how to do their promoting their product offers, if they follow what I show them, it works. If they do it their way or some other way, it doesn't work as well. It's the same just like your sales script. If I follow it, it works. If I just do it my way or try to wing it a little bit, it doesn't work.
Sam Ovens: Well, you absolutely can innovate. I'm never saying that my way is the best way. There's got to be a better way. There has to be. There always is. There's always something better than everything. There's never ever one perfect way, right? There's always better. But when you're starting out, don't kid yourself that you know better than the way that I found because for example, if I've done 2,000 calls, you've done zero, I probably have a better way. But once you start doing 1,000, 2,000, alright, now you can start to come up with your iterations and now you can innovate. If you actually worked on it, you could make something better than the one I've provided and you should. But most people think that they've got that ability when they've done nothing.
Frank Keeney: Right.
Sam Ovens: So you want to imitate first then innovate later.
Frank Keeney: Right, exactly.
Sam Ovens: What was wrong with your webinar? You said that you had a bottleneck trying to convert people from the webinar attendees to scheduled strategy sessions. When you started working with me, what did you discover the cause of that was?
Frank Keeney: Well, there's a certain way that you show the webinar and followed the same pattern and told my own stories and put it into what fits for what I train people in. It was really communicating with people better on exactly what kind of transformation that can happen for them. The way that you showed it worked much better than what I had tried in the past.
Sam Ovens: What were you doing in the past that you weren't doing when it worked better?
Frank Keeney: I think my previous [inaudible 00:17:58] the webinars were much more vague. In the current webinar there's not a lot of specifics but there's certainly a lot more of a message in the particular transformation that someone can take that can happen. I'm not even sure how I can describe. I haven't even looked at my old webinar for quite a few years, but it's completely different. Style, different points brought up, and ...
Sam Ovens: More clarity.
Frank Keeney: More clarity, exactly. I know exactly what's going to happen here.
Sam Ovens: I find that it's the big thing missing most of the time is that clarity because a lot of the time, coaching and consulting office, they're very complex. You know what I mean? There's so many different things in it. You could say it's a different mindset. You could say it's a different funnel. You could say it's a different sales strategy, a different kind of philosophy, a different way of doing ads, a different way of doing everything. And so, when you try to then put that into words, it's so hard because it's not like we're just selling an email software or it's not like we're just selling some very simple thing. It's very hard to articulate. Every time I sit down to make a webinar, man, it's grueling and it takes so much time.
Frank Keeney: I'm glad you're saying that because I find it a very grueling experience myself. That's more of the big things that I'm working on right now. But what I've noticed is the more I can get people to feel something in the right way and working with that emotion, that feeling, if it's done the right way, that makes a huge difference. I've actually applied a lot of that now to when ... I train people in conversion and the way I train people to sell products is similar. We want some sort of emotion in there. If people feel something, then it converts much, much better.
Sam Ovens: You need the logic too. It's like 50/50.
Frank Keeney: Yes.
Sam Ovens: Because feeling without logic, someone knows they're about to be taken on a ride, you know what I mean?
Frank Keeney: Right.
Sam Ovens: But just logic alone, it doesn't feel like anything. It's just logic. The hard part is getting both in there, so it makes sense and there's that feeling and that's when it just goes. But most of us either good at feelings and we can do that well but we're not good at logic or we're good at logic but we're not good at feelings. That's why most people ... I'm a thinker, so mine's all logic and I discount emotion and when I started incorporating some emotion into it, that's when I started to do really well. So, you've got right then.
Frank Keeney: Exactly. I'm exactly the same way. Selling products, often people just see it and they want to buy it. But what I found is when, both in the webinar and when I'm selling physical products, I initially start off listing my product sales, I start off with the emotion and then there's more like the features, which would be more like the logical side of it. Often people buy in emotion but they still need to logically process that a long with that for them to feel comfortable with what they're going to buy.
Sam Ovens: Got it. When you first were starting out and you're doing 20K a month getting two clients, this is before you started working with me. How did you find out about me and what made you want to start working with me back then?
Frank Keeney: Well, I think it was one of your early ... It was another program that you had years ago. I think it was either in 2015 or 2014. I actually implemented that. It was something completely different back then and I actually implemented it and it worked back then too. It worked but what you were training way back then was just not quite a good fit for what I wanted to do. But the high-ticket coaching and coaching, the one you came up, and the training that you had done back then, it was very detailed and easy to follow. It was pretty soon after you started doing the High-Ticket Coaching, Uplevel Consulting that I knew I wanted to get into your program because I was so impressed with the content you had in the past and this is a much better fit for what I want to do.
Sam Ovens: Got it. Then you joined and I know you used the sales script, you made your webinar better. What were some of those big shifts that happened as soon as you started going through the Uplevel program for you?
Frank Keeney: Well, I think the webinar was one of the biggest things and putting that message together. I still find [inaudible 00:24:12] webinar. It was that and getting the right message for the lead generation and then getting the right message in my email follow-ups and sequences. I started using Infusionsoft at that time with the way that you'd set it up with and the survey or doing the call scheduling, the survey. Kept pulling the whole thing together and just getting everything working together and following the same way that you did it.
Frank Keeney: I think one of the biggest things in not only just using your training to do it, but it's also to follow the same pattern that you do just seeing how you operated, just modeling after the way that you operate your Uplevel Consulting and how I handle on a week to week basis and how I work with my coaching clients, I patterned it after I saw how you run your program and overall, it brought in good people and at the same time, I was able to help a lot of people have some great success.
Sam Ovens: You mean like the operational structuring and all of that?
Frank Keeney: Exactly. The way you communicate in your Facebook group. The way you communicate with the weekly calls and so forth. A lot of what I've implemented is just after what I've seen you do. Your example on how you run a program like this, how you communicate with those that are in your programs.
Sam Ovens: Got it. Yeah, because to scale you need squeeze every ounce of efficiency so I'm always looking at how can we get more people in, make more money but without harming the customer experience at all. In fact, I'm looking for ways that we can bring more people and make more money and improve the customer experience.
Frank Keeney: Right. Yes.
Sam Ovens: As with most service businesses, the more people they serve, the more money they make, the worse the customer experience gets because if you're doing Done For You ads for one client and you are putting all of your time into that, then Done For You ads for two clients, you're probably going to be half as good. So, why would your client want you to get more clients? That's the age-old problem. They're like when someone gets a good person working for them, they're like, "Don't get any more clients. Just work with me." You know what I mean?
Frank Keeney: Yeah. That's what I'm transitioning into similar to what you're doing as well where I can scale this into and I'm right now working on that webinar to get that converting well.
Sam Ovens: For people who are listening, Done For You is a great way to start. It's the only way to start really. It's a great way to learn, to get people results, and to develop real mastery at what you do. But once you reach that point where you feel like in order to scale, in order to make more money you have to hurt your customer experience, that point right there is when you should transition from Done For You to programs and move from doing it for them to showing them how to do it themselves. That's when you can unlock that next level of scale without actually harming the customer experience.
Frank Keeney: Yeah, absolutely. Yes.
Sam Ovens: Let's talk about your niche and what you actually do for them and all of that. I'm guessing you chose the eCommerce niche for coaching because you already had an eCommerce business. That's what you did, that's what you know, and that's what you're obviously interested in, so that makes sense. But then how did you know that there was room in the market to come in and be a coach or a consultant for eCommerce business owners?
Frank Keeney: Specifically, what I work with people on is converting the advertising. Primarily, Facebook ads. What I help people with is I show them how to make effective ads for their products. These are all video ads. What I found is that one of the biggest challenges is in an eCommerce business, so someone either they're starting a business or they've got something and they're struggling with their advertising. It was some small things that you can make some huge changes in a business. If I can show them how to make an ad that's doing ...
Frank Keeney: I've had several situations where just small, small changes in like a video or their offer or their ad copy can make an enormous difference in the profitability of a product that they're promoting with an online ad. Specifically, I make it very narrow. What I do is help people with their video ads and what I found is that the advertising part of this is what so many eCommerce business owners have a real struggle with is okay, so they have a product they want to sell but they don't know how to market it to their target audience. That's what I do. I show the business owner how to effectively show their product in a way that will make it compelling to their intended audience.
Sam Ovens: That's what you do, but what would an eCommerce business owner be waking up in the middle of the night sweating about? What would be their thought, their worry, their concern, they know in their stomach in this stomach just eating them every day? What is that?
Frank Keeney: Well, if someone has developed a product or a brand and they've invested a lot of time, and money, and their sweat, and everything into this and now, they're not seeing results from what they're doing or they've had someone else do something for them and it's not working, and so now they've got all this capital into something that they expected to have really taken off.
Sam Ovens: So, you developed a product and put a lot of work into it but it's not selling.
Frank Keeney: It's not selling.
Sam Ovens: Or it's not selling profitably.
Frank Keeney: That's often the case. It's either not selling at all or they're breaking even or they're losing money.
Sam Ovens: What's the most common out of all three of those things do you find?
Frank Keeney: They're usually losing money.
Sam Ovens: Correct, because there's so much of a passion that they're willing to do that to move the product.
Frank Keeney: Right. In many cases, it's small tweaks, small changes in the message, in how they present the product. In a video ad, timing is everything. Showing the right thing at the right time, making people feel something so that ad copy and what is show in that promotion, in that video ad, the timing, and the message, and helping people to feel something about that product are all critical. In some cases, I've had people that have these absolutely gorgeous ads and they're not converting, they're losing money or they can't scale. In some cases, minor things can be done. Just changing scenes, and timing, and so forth, and message in there. I've seen some people just absolutely transform their business from losing money to scaling to $10,000, $20,000 or having 10, or 20 or $40,000 a day with video ads in profitable sales.
Sam Ovens: Got it. We see this everywhere, right? A business owner is typically someone who's passionate about something that's why they got into it because it's a lot of pain, it's a lot of effort to start a business and generally, someone has to really believe in it and love it to do it, so they do it. They develop it, whether that's a service, a product, whatever it is, and then they're like, "Why isn't everyone buying it?" It's enough to just master your craft and master a product or develop that, but then you realize that you have to go and do all this other stuff.
Sam Ovens: It's like the people who go to dentistry school and they however many years, it's five years or something. They go on to student debt. They make it their own practice then they'd finance all of this equipment and all of this stuff, then they'd sit in this room and then they're like, "You mean, I got to learn how to do this other marketing stuff now?" Then what's typical is that they'll rush it and do a bad job themselves and it won't work and it will just blow up or they'll just quickly hire somebody else and think they can flick it off and it doesn't work. They end up having to bite that bullet. You know want I mean?
Frank Keeney: Yes, absolutely.
Sam Ovens: It sounds like these people have tried those things. Then they come to you and you're the person who's going to show them how to bite the bullet and get it done.
Frank Keeney: That's right. Yeah, and now they have this thing and they've got to make it work. They're at the point where they've got to make it work and it's do or die.
Sam Ovens: Mm-hmm (affirmative). What do you promise them in your offer? When you say this is what we're going to do to get there, what are you promising them with that?
Frank Keeney: Well, they get exactly trainings and time with me, those kinds of things?
Sam Ovens: Well, I mean, what are you going to teach them how to do?
Frank Keeney: Okay, what I'm going to teach them is exactly the methodology for putting together that video and exactly what they need to show about their product at what point in the video. I have shown there how to craft their offer in a way that will get people to feel something about the product. Also, I show them how to put that video together and the way it should be edited. So what they should show at the beginning, what they should show in the first couple of seconds, what they should show in the next few seconds, and on and on.
Frank Keeney: I put together the philosophy of putting together the video, what needs to be where and depending on the kind of product they're selling, the product or service that they're selling that they need to show certain things at certain times and they need to have a certain message at a certain time. Certain things need to be like getting people's attention at the very beginning of the video and then keeping people engaged in what they're showing.
Frank Keeney: Then we work with them on conversion from okay, so they've got this video ad, somebody clicks and then we show them how to build congruence from their ad and their ad copy to the product page, and then the product page copy, and imagery, and the whole optimizing the checkout process to make sure that from the time the customer sees what is being offered and to maximize the amount of sales that they can make and increasing the average order value all the way from the ad to completing that checkout.
Sam Ovens: Got it. So, you're helping with the ads and especially the crafty message to really show how their product can be used to create value for the person by solving a problem or being aspirational, heading emotions, things like that. And then how to optimize that on site too like is it all congruent? Does it like together in way that's seamless with low friction and all of that?
Frank Keeney: Absolutely, yes. So, the imagery, the copy, what we want people to feel like while they watch that, they see the ad, they click through and we want to remove that friction from any part of the checkout process.
Sam Ovens: Why don't these people sell their stuff on Amazon?
Frank Keeney: Some of them do and in some cases, they've had difficulty making the sales on Amazon. You've got places like Facebook and Amazon. They're two completely different places to sell products and the way you sell on each of those platforms is completely different. Amazon is a search engine but Facebook is not. It's interruption marketing. So we're actually interrupting people that are on Facebook looking at this or that. But one of the beautiful things about Facebook is we target people based on what they're interested in. The way I look at it, it's a true marketing platform because it requires the one that's advertising the marketing to understand the target audience.
Sam Ovens: A lot of the products these people are selling, they're not ones where the market is at an awareness stage where they're actually seeking a solution.
Frank Keeney: Absolutely.
Sam Ovens: Then therefore, search in Amazon doesn't really make sense although if you know who that market is and you know what other products that person purchases that a good signal is that they have affinity to purchasing this, couldn't we use Amazon ads too?
Frank Keeney: Certainly. My personal experience with Amazon it hasn't been all that great and also, I've always been in eCommerce. What I sell in Amazon as well is through my own products and my own stores, but as a business owner, I don't want to build my whole business on somebody else's platform like Amazon. I want to have multiple places. The products I sell in my own stores, I have products I sell on Amazon and with Facebook ads and I can sell things with Facebook ads and charge more because Amazon being a search engine, there's a lot of comparison shopping going. So in many cases, I can sell products at a higher price and of course, that recoups most of my ad cost because now with Facebook ads, I'm not competing on price.
Sam Ovens: Got it. Yeah, I think also if you're doing some kind of eCommerce where you're not the manufacturer and owner of the thing, then it's dangerous territory to go on Amazon because as soon as they see it works, they will just go to your supplier and buy it from them and cut it up.
Frank Keeney: Right. Yes, that's exactly ...
Sam Ovens: If you're the IP owner, they can't go cut you out. You know what I mean?
Frank Keeney: Right.
Sam Ovens: But if you're selling something and you produce it, you own this IP, then they can't, there's no room for them there, so you just get to sell a lot of your own good. But the people who do the buying from the supplier and then this marking it up and selling it, those dues get roasted on Amazon.
Frank Keeney: I know. It comes down to the whole Blue Ocean Strategy. When you're in the Amazon marketplace, if you're just selling the same thing as everybody else, then they're all competing on price. I have a number of product that I sell with Facebook ads and I'm just doing very lose math based on comments that I see on I sell the same product with Facebook ads at a lot more money and there are those selling the same product. It's some generic items but I sell a lot more with Facebook ads than all of the sellers altogether on Amazon because ...
Sam Ovens: Because that's where there's an awareness step, right?
Frank Keeney: I think that's a really good ... I've been trying to think of a word to describe that, but that awareness guide, I think what you've just come up with is a good of explaining it. Many of the products that I sell with Facebook ads, there's a huge awareness that people don't know that the products exist. It's on Amazon, but I can reach that audience on Facebook and as well as the people I coach. They can reach that audience on Facebook. I always look at it as it's 95% different than the people on Amazon because those people, when we show them the ads for these products, they had never thought of looking for those on Amazon. So, it's completely, completely new territory inside of Facebook.
Sam Ovens: That's just because the market is early stage. Once they get really sophisticated and aware, then it's like toothpaste, right? You don't go selling toothpaste way more money on Facebook ads because everyone's aware of that damn stuff. So they look at it, they search for it, and they compare the prices, and they're educated as to what the equilibrium price it in the market.
Frank Keeney: That's right.
Sam Ovens: Because they are hyper aware, but when they're not aware, there's so much room.
Frank Keeney: I've actually used that example with people. I'd say, "Well look, I would never try selling toothpaste or a toothbrush with Facebook ads. Now, if I had toothpaste that completely eliminated plaque and the need for getting teeth cleaned, then that's something that I would do with Facebook ads." Well, I'd do it on Amazon as well, but just some generic product I can walk over to my local store and it's just everywhere, everybody knows about it. But personally, most of my success with my own products on Facebook ads are those products where there's that big awareness gap by finding something that is really clever that people don't know, they really don't know about it. You show them a really clever ad on Facebook and people will just go crazy for it.
Sam Ovens: The thing that jumps to my mind is that cooler bin. Do you remember that someone had come up with this new cooler bin that had a radio in it and it had electricity? You could plug your USB into it, it could play music, it had Bluetooth and it was called the coolest cooler. Do you remember that?
Frank Keeney: No, I don't think I've seen that.
Sam Ovens: They're advertising it on Facebook. It was [inaudible 00:45:52], but it sold millions like I think it could have $10 million with this thing and now, that's a cooler. That's in a category where there is awareness, but it had a radical difference, it had that awareness gap. That was a perfect example because I know they sold tons of it. If you Google it, you'll find it on click data and you'll see the story. But that's the perfect example of what something has to be in order to really fly with Facebook.
Frank Keeney: Right. What I found often is even a product where it may be like a common product however, it has something different about it. At the same time, when I do the video and there's some sort of demonstration and emotion that takes place, they instantly understand what the product is and then you just show this extra benefit that it has and people go crazy for it. That works extremely well.
Sam Ovens: Have you see Purple Mattresses?
Frank Keeney: Yes, I have.
Sam Ovens: Yeah, so that's an example, right?
Frank Keeney: Totally, yeah.
Sam Ovens: They're in the crowd of market mattresses. The awareness of those things is high. But they came out with something quite different and they did the videos with the egg on the mattress dropping the glass on it. What's funny is always saw those and it was so memorable, but then my wife, earlier this year, she was like, "Oh, we need a new mattress," and the first thing that was at the top of my mind is Purple Mattress. So we bought one and now we have one and it's actually really good. I was like man, I hope this thing lives up to the hype because I've seen a lot of hype on the internet about this damn thing and it's got great marketing, great advertising.
Frank Keeney: Oh, yeah.
Sam Ovens: But when the actual product came I was like, "I hope this thing actually is good," and I'm happy to report that it's actually good.
Frank Keeney: Yeah. In their marketing, they used all the tricks in the book. Pattern interrupts and just really emotion, everything. It was like the perfect advertisement.
Sam Ovens: Plus, they've got different products too at the heart of it all.
Frank Keeney: Right.
Sam Ovens: Because it's cheaper than most because it's like a thousand bucks delivered, which is quite cheap for what's supposed to be one of the best mattresses for you. It shows why it's better for you and your back and your sleep and all of that. So, they've got that at the heart of it because you can't just take a standard product, you can't put makeup on a pig, you know what I mean?
Frank Keeney: Right, exactly.
Sam Ovens: It still looks like a pig. So, you want to have something at the core and then you can go and really make it stand out.
Frank Keeney: Yeah. That's where in my own product video is I start off with showing what's the big solution, what's the big benefit that my product is going to have and I show what's different about what I'm promoting. Now, when I'm working with someone that has a brand or a product, in a video you need to have something to grab their attention, you need to keep them watching. In a video ad, there's two things that marketers want especially on a platform like Facebook.
Frank Keeney: Your primary goal of course is to make sales but at the same time, platforms like Facebook want their users to have a good experience. So as marketers, we need to effectively show our products in a way that will also satisfy Facebook. So users are enjoying the experience and at the same time, promote the product. So, getting that balance working real well, that's what I show people how to do and both have that good user experience for the Facebook users because for, that's their number one thing is to make sure the users have a good experience as is advertisers. We're important as well, but without all those users, we wouldn't have anybody to advertise to.
Sam Ovens: That's why I call them the Trojan Horse ads.
Frank Keeney: Okay.
Sam Ovens: You know, the story how they had to put these soldiers inside a horse so that they would accept it into the village?
Frank Keeney: Right.
Sam Ovens: That's what we got to do with our ads. If the sales part and the pitch is the soldier, then we just can't put a soldier on Facebook because then everyone, like Facebook won't want it. You got to put them inside a shell and you got to provide value so that if someone doesn't click, if someone doesn't buy, they're still like, "Oh, this was worth my time looking at. This was good. This was helpful," even if they don't click, you know what I mean?
Frank Keeney: Right.
Sam Ovens: Because otherwise, if the people didn't like, if you don't click you're going to fail and your life's going to suck, then that's going to piss of a lot of people. So you got to get that balance right, as you're talking about. You got to bury your pitch in the end. We do it. We bury it deep in this so like the top part of it is mostly value and story and this, and then only the people that read deep into it actually get the pitch, so most people don't see the pitch.
Frank Keeney: Right.
Sam Ovens: So then not most people are happy. You know what I mean? It's an art form.
Frank Keeney: Right. With products, a lot of what we do is use motion and attempts things to get attention and sometimes, there is there if we do it a little bit too entertaining, then people will watch it but we won't sell anything.
Sam Ovens: Right, so Trojan Horse without any soldiers in it.
Frank Keeney: Exactly. Now, we just tweak it, we just keep putting that solider a little bit more in the forefront and we get it to the point where okay, now it's converting and Facebook likes it. A great thing is when you strike a really good balance, then Facebook rewards the advertiser with lower impression cost and, at the same time, you're making sales and everybody's happy.
Sam Ovens: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Good. So, you've worked with me for a while now. You've gone from 20K to 80K a month. What would you say has been the one most transformative part of working with me?
Frank Keeney: Well, I think one of the most important parts is mindset. With any sort of business and as I started doing coaching myself with others to see when I started working with you and starting bringing on more people, and then now ... I think there was a point in there where I was finding okay, now I'm seeing some of my students struggling and I think I've realized that I needed to work on my mindset more so I could also help those that are in my coaching. What I found is that the ... In fact, having the training in place both in your training and in how I help people, it's extremely important to have something that people can apply and become effective. But there's no point in having any of that if people don't have the mindset to actually make the changes [inaudible 00:54:16] the way they work, the way they use their time.
Frank Keeney: The way I look at it, everything in success is 80% mindset or probably even more than that. But I'd say it's 80% mindset and then the rest of it is just taking ... So, I'm showing someone how to do something to make their advertising more effective, but they need to believe in it. They have to actually do it and they need to make the time to actually make that happen. In order to make a change, in order to change enough to do something new, you have to change. Change has to take place. You have to do something different and you have to think about something different if you are going to go to change your business and change your life, change yourself.
Sam Ovens: I agree. I'm sure you have noticed a lot of the different people in the Facebook groups we've got like the members in the programs. What would be your number one piece of advice for them going through this journey? What should they focus on or what should they avoid? If you could just say one piece of advice to them to help them on their journey, what is it?
Frank Keeney: Well, I think there's just one thing that's helped me the most. Before we started the call, I've been using this book that you sent out. It's been a big change. It's really helped me. What's helped me is before, what I do is ... The number one thing that's helped me the most is to plan my next day the night before. Before I go to sleep, I plan out my next day. As I've tried to understand the subconscious in the last six months or so, I'd really been trying to understand what is it in me that is preventing me from getting where I want to go. So I've always looked at the subconscious as kind of this thing that's there but actually, it's 80% of what is controlling what we do every moment.
Frank Keeney: The most effective way I found to really make big changes is to spend that time each evening and of course, follow up first thing in the morning on setting out exactly what I'm going to do for that day and that has been the number one thing. I've been doing a good job of it for the last year or so and it's made some incredible changes in my business and in the way I feel about my business. I'm becoming this different person. You can't be the same person you were two or three years ago and expect to have the success from a mindset when you're not in the right position. For me, any sort of change, the mindset change has to come along with that change.
Sam Ovens: I agree. You got to evolve or don't.
Frank Keeney: Yeah.
Sam Ovens: And that all starts with the mindset. Once you get stubborn and stuck in your patterns, death comes either in business or in anything. Once cells stop replicating, that's what causes death, and age, and all of that. So in a business or in your mind, once you stop trying to grow, and iterate, and evolve, it's what happens. It's what happens everywhere. You've always got to keep moving forward otherwise, stagnation happens and then entropy.
Frank Keeney: Right. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Oh, yeah. I've been in business long enough. Actually, I have experienced some of that myself but I could definitely see that this the only way to ... Not too early on in my business, I started doing eCommerce back 2001, and I hit a point where thought, "Hey, this thing is just going to keep going forever just like this and I can take it easy." There was one year in there where I got a big wake-up call. It's something I never want to repeat.
Sam Ovens: You always want to stay in front otherwise then, it starts when you're behind because you got to catch up. So you always want to be leading the arms race in your market, not the one trying to play catch-up.
Frank Keeney: Right, exactly.
Sam Ovens: Cool. Thanks a lot for jumping on and sharing your story. I'm sure it's going to help a lot of members in the community and also inspire a lot of people to really get into eCommerce or if they've got eCommerce stores to consider coaching as well. If people want to learn more about you and what you do, how do they find you?
Frank Keeney: My website is at frankkeeney.com and that's with two Ks. That's the easiest place to find me. You can just look up my name and you'll find my page. So, that's the best place to find me. If anyone would see or is watching this, you've probably seen one of my ads. If you are already in eCommerce, I've been advertising for quite some time now.
Sam Ovens: Cool.
Frank Keeney: All right?
Sam Ovens: Well, thanks a lot for sharing your story and we'll speak soon.
Frank Keeney: Okay. Thanks, Sam.